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    Team Gestalt Heroes

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    ATuin-hek

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    Re: Team Gestalt Heroes

    Bericht  ATuin-hek op zo jan 16, 2011 8:01 pm

    Denk dat de healing wel goed zit dan. Het vigor aura healt iedereen tot de helft, en zal zorgen dat ik wat healing spells ken. Wss ook augment healing.
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    loki

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    Re: Team Gestalt Heroes

    Bericht  loki op ma jan 17, 2011 11:46 pm

    Houserule1: resting for 8 hours does not in fact recover you completely.
    you need 3 such periods to full heal up.
    For spells this means you get 1/3 your spells back after a period of rest. Spells are hereby tallied like powerpoints(lvl 1 spell is 1 spellpoint, lvl 3 spell 5) and can be picked and chosen as seen fit.

    Houserule2: Spontaneous casters have spellpoints according to the above formula. And can cast spend these freely amongst spells known

    Metamagic is calculated accordingly.
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    Martijn

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    Re: Team Gestalt Heroes

    Bericht  Martijn op di jan 18, 2011 12:16 am

    well those rules killed my and roan's chars...back to square one i guess
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    loki

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    Re: Team Gestalt Heroes

    Bericht  loki op di jan 18, 2011 8:41 am

    Meanwhile I still don't know what your shtick was and therefor have no way of accomendating.

    So I will just say that dual prestigelines is fine for the over the top rocket-tag fun-time of dennis's campaign. Here it will probably shift double-tapping minions and random encounters to twohitting bosses and otherwise powerful foes.
    Something that would kill the fun I figure.
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    Martijn

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    Re: Team Gestalt Heroes

    Bericht  Martijn op di jan 18, 2011 10:58 pm

    what's the deal with the special feats like swift hunter?
    is it for example allowed to only let it count for 1 tree? like with mystic theurge that you need both the divine and arcane in 1?
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    loki

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    Re: Team Gestalt Heroes

    Bericht  loki op wo jan 19, 2011 10:14 am

    In gestalt class-combination feats like swift hunter are (generally) a little too much bang for your buck.
    I will have to see the rest of the build before I can judge if it fits or not.

    So yes, it's allowed, but on a case by case basis and it still needs Dm fiat.
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    ATuin-hek

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    Re: Team Gestalt Heroes

    Bericht  ATuin-hek op do jan 20, 2011 3:45 am

    loki schreef:Houserule1: resting for 8 hours does not in fact recover you completely.
    you need 3 such periods to full heal up.
    For spells this means you get 1/3 your spells back after a period of rest. Spells are hereby tallied like powerpoints(lvl 1 spell is 1 spellpoint, lvl 3 spell 5) and can be picked and chosen as seen fit.

    Houserule2: Spontaneous casters have spellpoints according to the above formula. And can cast spend these freely amongst spells known

    Metamagic is calculated accordingly.

    wait, what? De spells niet terug na een dag rust?
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    loki

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    Re: Team Gestalt Heroes

    Bericht  loki op do jan 20, 2011 6:24 am

    idd.
    Gestalt(2x as many spells) combined with freeform play(rarely 5 or more encounters/day) will make the complete refresh mechanism very likely to have people go nova on encounters. Which is no fun.

    I think this will balance everything out nicely. (if not, we will switch back, big deal)
    It's about options, not power. After all.
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    Martijn

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    Re: Team Gestalt Heroes

    Bericht  Martijn op do jan 20, 2011 7:58 am

    yes and no.

    2x as many spells is ONLY if people take caster levels on both sides. (which maybe only 1 or so of does, since gestalt is more ment for blending physical and caster stuff)

    2nd of all how is this going work efficiently with classes like wizards and clerics? who need to prepare; hmmm rest...ohh wth only 1/3 of my spells.
    especially since most of them already have a quite limited supply of spells per day.

    or are we supposed to just stop in the middle of a dungeon or evil fortress and just go like: hmmm lets just have a sleepover in this room, surely no one will bother us for 24 hours.....

    although I applaud your wish and initiative to make things more exciting, do keep in mind that most decisions on this calibre have the most profound impact for some classes.

    if you do not want over-the-top characters in your story, just say so. we can all judge what should be acceptable and what would need your further scrutiny and approval.
    this makes things easier for you and us, for now we often spend god knows how much time in building things, only to start over from scratch time and again.

    as for the swift hunter example I named earlier: my idea was to use 1 side to build something with flavour, fighting style etc. and use the other to actually make it a worthwhile addition to the group, or in other words, ensure it can deal some damage instead of only beautiful hot air.
    No godlike AC, strength that can topple mountains or anything like that.
    For Roan and me the aim was an efficient, tactical fighter.
    Sure, any toon, any of us makes will excel in some situations over others, but that will always be the case, whatever someone makes.
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    loki

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    Re: Team Gestalt Heroes

    Bericht  loki op do jan 20, 2011 1:35 pm

    Yes that is precisely the idea. Either ropetrick or retreat and come back later.
    The thought that 8 hours of rest gets you back in peak fighting condition has always bugged me. I know, I know, Magic...but still. It drains realism from the game. It makes it less gritty and tough. It's a dungeon ffs. You are not supposed too just shake it off in 8 hours. While still in it. Or so I think.

    There are 2x as many spells, because some fightertypes will take spells on the side, some casters will take dual casting classes. And 34 pointbuy means a lot of extra spells.
    Strong fightertypes, all day abilitys and use of ToB, ToM and MoI will add to being dependant on spelluse less and thus have more of them lying around to nova with.
    I have thoroughly considered the implications and consequences and trust us all nuff to handwave the parts I could not.

    I regret that you build your chars with dual prestiges for about 15 lvls.
    On the bright side, I heard you had fun doing so.
    And I will have you know that many of the abilitys and tricks you derived from those prestigeclasses can also be taken from the base classes of Tome of Battle.

    Further, on a swift efficient fighter that needs the damageboost feats like swift hunter are allowed. As stated above. I would still however need to see the chars because you might have underestimated your raw power, as you often do.
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    ATuin-hek

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    Re: Team Gestalt Heroes

    Bericht  ATuin-hek op do jan 20, 2011 2:11 pm

    Van dual prestiges uitgaan was dan ook niet zo snugger, gezien dat niet mag met normale gestalt regels Wink Qua het nova gaan op encounters, snap dat dat een punt is voor offensieve casters. Laten we iig ook even goed in de gaten houden hoe het met de healing en andere support uitkomt, als telkens maar een 3de terug komt. Het mana/powerpoint systeem lijkt me iig wel grappig om eens een keer te proberen.
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    Uller

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    Re: Team Gestalt Heroes

    Bericht  Uller op do jan 20, 2011 3:57 pm

    Ik wil nog even toevoegen dat je niet alles terug krijgt na 8 uur rusten, je krijgt namelijk je spells etc. terug, maar je HP recovery is gecapped op 1/level dus daar hoeft m.i. niets aan veranderd te worden. Waarom we meestal weer tip top in orde zijn is omdat we sowieso nooit de 3-5 encounters per dag halen en dus meestal de spells hebben om volledig geheald te zijn voor het slapen.

    Ik vind het op zich wel een leuk fatigue element invoeren als je niet elke rustperiode alles terug krijgt. Het maakt alleen de warlock, ToB classes e.d. relatief machtiger, de vraag is dan of dat terecht is (blijkbaar word je niet moe van die ToB maneuvers Wink ). In de zin van: worden die dan niet te krachtig?
    Het volgende punt is dan dat het helpt om je mechanisme iets helderder/uitgebreider te formuleren.

    Misschien in de trant van:
    Resting for 8 consecutive hours allows a character to recover a portion of their spells/power points per day. Spontaneous casters (using spell points) and Manifesters recover a number of spell/power points equal to 1/3 of their maximum number of spell/power points rounded up.
    Voor de casters die spells voorbereiden is het wat lastiger. Ik stel voor dat je dan uit gaat van het volgende:
    To determine the spells recovered by casters that prepare spells, determine the number of spell levels per day (sum of all spell slots*their level). The caster recovers 1/3 op these spell levels per day rounded up.
    Je kunt dan nog beslissen hoe je wilt dat deze spell levels verdeeld worden, voor de gegeneraliseerde methode:
    The caster is allowed to assign these level as they wish (e.g. assign three spell levels to recover a 3rd level spell slot)
    Als je wat lulliger wilt zijn Wink kun je in plaats daarvan ook zeggen:
    These spell levels are then assigned to recover spell slots starting at the lowest level and working your way up
    Ik zou in allebei de vormen (zeker in de laatste vorm) adviseren om toe te staan om "leftover" spell level te bewaren tot het volgende herstel moment.




    Laatst aangepast door Uller op vr jan 21, 2011 4:39 pm; in totaal 1 keer bewerkt
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    ATuin-hek

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    Re: Team Gestalt Heroes

    Bericht  ATuin-hek op vr jan 21, 2011 3:02 pm

    Is het misschien een idee als iedereen niet zijn volledige starting gold besteed? Dan kunnen we nog dingen voor de party aanschaffen. Een artificers monocle bijvoorbeeld.
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    Roan
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    Re: Team Gestalt Heroes

    Bericht  Roan op vr jan 21, 2011 3:40 pm

    zal er over nadenken.. Razz
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    Uller

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    Re: Team Gestalt Heroes

    Bericht  Uller op vr jan 21, 2011 4:38 pm

    ATuin-hek schreef:Is het misschien een idee als iedereen niet zijn volledige starting gold besteed? Dan kunnen we nog dingen voor de party aanschaffen. Een artificers monocle bijvoorbeeld.

    Assuming psionics/magic transparency, ik heb psionic identify als power Smile dus voor identificatie is dat niet nodig, maar voor healing e.d. des te meer denk ik Wink

    Ow en pearls of power zijn nu ook relatief meer waard voor degenen die spells casten
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    loki

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    Re: Team Gestalt Heroes

    Bericht  loki op vr jan 21, 2011 7:59 pm

    On that note: pearls of power can only be use to fuel the lvl spell/power that the pearl is. You can't just recharge you sp total with a bag of pearls.
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    Uller

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    Re: Team Gestalt Heroes

    Bericht  Uller op ma jan 24, 2011 10:39 pm

    Als een self-charging cognizance crystal dus?

    Oh ik vond een item die wel van pas gaat komen, zeker gezien de resting rules.
    Heward's Fortifying Bedroll uit complete mage
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    loki

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    Re: Team Gestalt Heroes

    Bericht  loki op di jan 25, 2011 1:47 am

    on that note, Valor has a living magic item that also adds +1. About the same price. And it lets you regrow limbs...
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    Uller

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    Re: Team Gestalt Heroes

    Bericht  Uller op za jan 29, 2011 3:45 pm

    loki schreef:on that note, Valor has a living magic item that also adds +1. About the same price. And it lets you regrow limbs...
    +1 to what?

    Wat is je stand m.b.t. de Erudite? Vooral wat betreft de status ten opzichte van de Psion (d.w.z. is het mogelijk om Psion en Erudite te combineren, of moet je kiezen) en de unique powers per day (Dragon magazine vs Bruce Cordell lezing)
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    loki

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    Re: Team Gestalt Heroes

    Bericht  loki op za jan 29, 2011 3:57 pm

    +1 hp/hd when resting.

    Erudite is fun and flavorful. Spell to power erudite is banned harded than pun pun.

    Erudite as I read it is a psion variant, as such you can't be a psion//erudite
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    Uller

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    Re: Team Gestalt Heroes

    Bericht  Uller op za jan 29, 2011 6:32 pm

    Aww no arcane fusion cheese? Very Happy
    Seriously though, StP is way too cheesy for my taste.

    I'd like to change my psion levels to erudite levels, the question is what version. The are two versions: Complete Psionic and Dragon Magazine.

    The difference between the two is in the daily unique powers. The CPsi grants unique powers per day (4/day at lvl 6), whereas the DrM version grants unique powers per day per level (lvl 1: 3/day ,lvl 2: 3/day and lvl 3; 2/day at level 6).
    Now, the CPsi fits better with the whole augment business, as that blurs the lines between the power levels. It is, however, a tight fitting straight-jacket.
    DrM is, I think, a bit too generous with their unique powers per day, perhaps it might be an idea to be somewhere in between (unique powers/day, but a slightly faster progression than CPsi). But it's your call.

    On another subject, the SRD says:
    SRD schreef:Manifest an Unknown Power from Another’s Powers Known
    A psionic character can attempt to manifest a power from a source other than his own knowledge (usually a power stone or another willing psionic character). To do so, the character must first make contact (a process similar to addressing a power stone, requiring a Psicraft check against a DC of 15+ the highest level power in the power stone or repertorie). A psionic character can make contact with only a willing psionic character or creature (unconscious creatures are considered willing, but not psionic characters under the effects of other immobilizing conditions). Characters who can’t use power stones for any reason are also banned from attempting to manifest powers from the knowledge of other psionic characters. Mental contact requires 1 full round of physical contact, which can provoke attacks of opportunity. Once contact is achieved, the character becomes aware of all the powers stored in the power stone or all the powers the other character knows up to the highest level of power the contactor knows himself.
    Next, the psionic character must choose one of the powers and make a second Psicraft check (DC 15 + the power’s level) to see if he understands it. If the power is not on his class list, he automatically fails this check.
    Upon successfully making contact with another willing psionic character or creature and learning what he can of one power in particular, the character can immediately attempt to manifest that power even if he doesn’t know it (and assuming he has power points left for the day). He can attempt to manifest the power normally on his next turn, and he succeeds if he makes one additional Psicraft check (DC 15 + the power’s level). He retains the ability to manifest the selected power for only 1 round. If he doesn’t manifest the power, fails the Psicraft check, or manifests a different power, he loses his chance to manifest that power for the day.

    This piece of text is slightly unclear, but it seems to imply that you can use powers stones to manifest powers without using them up, provided you use your own power points. What's your ruling on that?
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    loki

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    Re: Team Gestalt Heroes

    Bericht  loki op za jan 29, 2011 10:51 pm

    Seeing it costs you 2 turns to pull a power out of your ass/stones I have no problem with that. Actions are a valuable resource in a fight. But so are powerpoints and optimum use of them.
    And out of combat the option of a failed check or expenditure of a second lvl spell by the fs to prevent the chance makes it balanced as far as I am concerned.

    Then again, that is taking low lvl powers and augmentation into account. I am unsure how it will shift once you hit lvl 12 or so.
    Till then, go right ahead. We can always adjust things later.

    As for the erudite, I'd like to use the CPsi version. Dragon is generally generous as a way to sell issues. That said, there is plenty dragon mag material that is simply meant to round out the existing material more. But you don't see those excerps on any boards...
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    Uller

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    Re: Team Gestalt Heroes

    Bericht  Uller op za jan 29, 2011 11:57 pm

    Consider me amended to (erudite 5/net mind 1)/(ardent 6)

    And out of combat the option of a failed check or expenditure of a second lvl spell by the fs to prevent the chance makes it balanced as far as I am concerned.
    Not sure what you mean here, but ok.

    Oh, and I've added Mindlink and Astral Construct to my powers known list at lvl 3 so i've payed 120XP, does this mean i start at lvl 5? GP costs as power stones I guess.
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    loki

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    Re: Team Gestalt Heroes

    Bericht  loki op zo jan 30, 2011 4:22 am

    Vlad has a second lvl spell that adds +20 to a skillcheck. So when making that psicraft check to expend powerpoints instead of burn a stone you can make sure, if its necessary.

    Learning from stone burns the stone, just like a wizard a scroll.

    And no, the xp will be deducted from your next lvl. You still start at lvl 6.
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    Uller

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    Re: Team Gestalt Heroes

    Bericht  Uller op zo feb 06, 2011 12:11 am

    What's my XP budget for learning powers and crafting? I've got a couple of other powers on my wish list Smile

    WotC ruled against using the manifesting from another's powers known rules with power stones. At least, someone posted that somewhere (haven't been able to find the ruling itself).
    Oh and maybe manifesting a power through the remote font access could be balanced more by either increasing the time it takes (taking away its combat usefulness almost entirely) or by ruling that it counts as a unique power per day.

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    Re: Team Gestalt Heroes

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